Nailed it. I have no problem whatsoever, with people "making money," for providing a service. I myself am self employed. BUT....what I advertise, is what people get. I provide safe, clean, warm accommodation.
And I've also got no problem with spiritual gurus passing on wisdom, providing value, in return for money.
I have a BIG problem with what most of the gurus promise, and have ZERO hope of EVER delivering. They peddle unconditional love, compassion, bliss, peace, if you only meditate, go to a retreat, attend a zoom, buy their book, take such and such a plant medicine, etc. All the focus is on THEM.And their products.
Anyone selling anything, that is not pointing you, back to YOU, is a charlatan. We have all we ever need inside us. These gurus constantly have us chasing something "out there." For a price. They drain us of time, money, our earnest heart and soul efforts. Which is bad enough.
The very worst thing though. Is when it doesn't work. Because it never could.
And we are actually left worse off, than when we started. Cos we mistakenly believe the problem is us. That we are irredeemably broken.
We are NOT broken. We are intelligently designed. What that "intelligence" is, I can only experience directly for myself. And of course, I can talk about it with others.
But guess what ? I have a dear friend, who is a devout Muslim. She has no idea whatsoever, that I have "woken up." She wouldn't know what the phrase "non-duality"means. And yet. We have the most beautiful conversations about spirituality, and God. She knows I don't "believe in God." I don't have to pretend anything, and neither does she. Our different perspectives have no bearing whatsoever, on the deep, fulfilling heart connection we have.
And that heart connection we share, comes from the same source. And our own connection to that. It belongs to everyone, and no one. It's ubiquitous, abundant, infinite, endless. To box it up, in a "product" or a "religion" or a "modality" is laughable at best, cruel at worst.
It's like trying to sell someone air.....oh, silly me, there are companies that do actually do that. And there are suckers that fall for it. Probably desperately sick people, grasping for anything to escape their suffering.
Suffering is inevitable in this human experience. The very attempt to escape it, is what perpetuates the suffering, and makes us weaker and weaker.
But we are built for resilience. We are strong. We are intelligently designed. When we embrace the reality of suffering, move towards it, only then, can we overcome it.
I'm sick of coddling, soothing, pious clap trap. It's all nonsense.
Shiv your comment: "Most teachers who start out aren’t really being Machiavellian about it. Many genuinely believe that they want to be of service to others on the path." This seems to me to be the starting place where want-to-be teachers need to ask themselves, "what is my real and total motive for wanting to teach"???? Could the person's ego/insecurity/lack of self confidence, search for acceptance be the larger part of wanting to "help" others become enlightened? Money is always suspect when starting down a path like this, but in my experience ego, the need to be seen as special is subconsciously the biggest motivator, and it takes some real introspection to really be honest and see this. I know from my own self reflection that I would never want to be a "teacher". I know my ego and know that this way madness lies. Being honest with ourselves can be a bitch sometimes. :)
I think I have to (respectfully !) disagree with this one. I think it's more nuanced. Yes the spiritual industry is a business and yes the business model of that industry is based more on retention than on turnover, but not every "spiritual teacher or speaker" is selling "the end of suffering" or "enlightenment" or a "cursus to awakening", a lot of them are just selling a "music", the "advaita/non dual philosophy music" for instance. And just as some people pay to go to their favorite musician's concert or to purchase his new CD, some people pay for a non-dual retreat or for a one-to-one session with their favourite "spiritual teacher", just to "hear the music", to enjoy a personal link with the "musician", they pay for the experience of being close to him/her whitout wanting something more than the experience itself. And retention makes perfect sense in that perspective and isn't a problem at all.
Some people are fan of a singer or a group their whole life, they spend a lot of money to purchase every new disc, every new song, to go to every new concert, they listen to him/them every day, etc. Are we blaming the singer or rock band for having a business model based on retention ?
Your own products, Shiv, are not very far from what are selling a lot of small "non-dual teachers" : you sell your words (through books and paid subscriptions here on Substack), you sell one-to-one sessions, in other words, you sell "your music", and retention is your business model : you try to make good music so that people continue to read or listen to your words.
You have much more in common with, for instance, Joan Tollifson, Lisa Cairns or Jeff Foster, who are considered "spiritual teachers/speakers", than what you seem to think. And I'm not saying it's a wrong thing or that you should be ashamed of that, not at all. My point is that you are yourself somewhere on the "spiritual industry spectrum", even if you're far from someone like Mooji or Eckart Tolle and closer to Joan Tollifson or Jeff Foster.
I'm not saying you are identical, not at all. You have your own original voice and music. I personally prefer to listen to your voice than to Foster's. But when we compare your respective websites for instance, they are quite similar, on the level of form but also content, you do not use the same words, but a lot of the basic ideas are similar.
Here are for instance two excerpts of the testimonial's section of your respective websites, little quiz : which one is taken from where ? :
“My one-to-one with [...] helped me to really see that everything and anything that I ever thought about ‘enlightenment’ was just a collection of spiritual concepts or beliefs. [...] helped me see that what I really am has no interest in whether I think I have succeeded or failed in my spiritual search. Whether I think I have ‘made it’ or not, the story goes on, and even when life is difficult, it really is OK, always…”
And
“ [...] has this special way of providing you with the answer you need. He guides you in the right path, but lets you explore it. Talking to him is like communicating with pure wisdom. The things he has shared with me have been so powerful, that they were able to change my whole perspective on life. He has helped me find freedom in my life. It might sound over-the-top, but when you are dealing with anxiety, depression and insomnia, there is very little room for freedom and creative expression. But [...]’s guidance (and just his approach to life) has helped me learn from my experiences, release my emotional baggage and find that freedom.
Appreciating all aspects of life and listening to my heart/intuition are daily activities now. Thank you!”
And here is something that come's from JF's Disclaimer on his website : "This website is for general information and entertainment purposes only. Use of this website, or attending a meeting, retreat or one-to-one session with Jeff Foster, or having an email dialogue with him, is NOT a replacement for or substitute to face-to-face, in-person, qualified medical, psychological, psychiatric or legal advice, diagnosis or treatment. Jeff is not a medical doctor nor a licensed psychotherapist. Jeff does not diagnose, cure, heal, or treat disease or psychological conditions or otherwise prescribe any kind of medication whatsoever. [...]" Isn't that something you could say yourself, Shiv, specially that first sentence "entertainment purpose only" ?
So, in a nutshell, yes the "spiritual industry" is based on a retention model but that doesn't make it per se a problem or a red flag. It's only a problem if the "spiritual teacher/writer/speaker" pretends he's offering something more than just "music" (i.e. the end of suffering/enlightenment/etc) AND that the consumer BELIEVES that the "spiritual teacher/writer/speaker" sells him something more than just "music". If you know that Tolle or Mooji can't give you anything fundamental, can't change you in any fundamental way, you can give him all your extra money to enjoy his music or his compagny, it isn't a problem. On the other hand, if you give all your extra money to some "spiritual teacher/speaker/writer" (even if he/she says "I have nothing to offer") because you desesperatly want to be free from all suffering, or become "enlightened", or become "a perfect being", then that's a red flag.
In other words, it's mostly in the hands of the listener/reader/customer. My question to the customers of "spiritual teachers" would be : Do you know why you are spending your money ? Is it just for the "music" or are you expecting more ?
Cedric - understand your desire to see nuance in the situation. However, your own substack is titled “No Masters”. Why? It’s because positioning oneself as a “spiritual master” is a widespread phenomenon. If it was merely a fringe phenomenon like your comment above seems to suggest - you wouldn’t bother taking a contrarian view on it. The reason you have chosen to title your own substack that way is because you clearly see a huge problem with the way people are misled.
Spirituality is more than the little niche world of non-dual teachers. It’s people talking about akashic records and tantra and ascension and aliens and other dimensions and kundalini and astral travel and meditation and bardo states just to name a few. And all of this is energy and movement is geared towards promising people that they can become free of their ordinary lives and emerge into something extraordinary. And those who claim to be able to usher them into it are the ones claiming to be teachers are masters.
And by titling your substack “No Masters” what you are saying is “all of that is bullshit. No one can lead you anywhere. You are already it.”
So, I agree with your opinion that in reality there are only people making music. But that is NOT how most teachers are positioning what they are doing. I do position myself that way but I am a gross minority.
I hear you. Since you mention the title of my own substack, I want to add this : Even the iconoclast, the advaita-killjoy, the anti-guru, is part of the "spiritual spectrum", I myself am part of it, even though I say "No masters" and "If you think you have or are a spiritual master you are deluding yourself". Whether I like it or not I'm making "spiritual music", and those likely to enjoy it or be interested in it, are 'spiritual enthusiasts' or 'spiritual amateurs' or 'spiritual addicts'. Those that never ever had any interest in "spirituality" whatsoever won't be interested in any of what I say. Even by saying "I have nothing to offer", I offer something on the "spiritual realm". The "iconoclasts" or "antigurus" are closer to "gurus" and "masters" that they might think.
I used to think like this; that the gurus monetized truth and exploited it for personal gain. But now I see it as a natural part of idea cognizance in a capitalist society. It’s like oil; if you dig where you are standing and it’s valuable to a large group of people, then sell it. Before I used to criticize and condemn, but now I see it as completely natural. I don’t see it as a red flag, from the perspective of if you provide value to the system, you will be rewarded. This is why I also encouraged you to start charging people for your articles. Value is the ultimate currency in a time limited species. What I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what happens when a large group of people organize around a certain idea and create a toxic environment for the other cohabitants in the system, I.e. extremism. We all know which religion is synonymous with “religious extremism”, and yet their numbers are growing in population. This can be seen as a potential threat to the freedoms we all enjoy if the idea is “convert or kill”. The spiritual community is like a cat compared to the tiger of religion.
If an oil company is selling oil that is fine. If an oil company is really paving the way for a hostile takeover of the region by a foreign government and political destabilization - that is not fine.
Selling services is not the issue. It’s the act of selling a promise with the intention to entrap that is. This is a widespread phenomenon as one of the commenters, Being Danced, alludes to above
I think most of them are marketing “the community,” giving a sense of belonging to those who feel like they don’t belong...it’s emotionally a very powerful driver for people.
Nailed it. I have no problem whatsoever, with people "making money," for providing a service. I myself am self employed. BUT....what I advertise, is what people get. I provide safe, clean, warm accommodation.
And I've also got no problem with spiritual gurus passing on wisdom, providing value, in return for money.
I have a BIG problem with what most of the gurus promise, and have ZERO hope of EVER delivering. They peddle unconditional love, compassion, bliss, peace, if you only meditate, go to a retreat, attend a zoom, buy their book, take such and such a plant medicine, etc. All the focus is on THEM.And their products.
Anyone selling anything, that is not pointing you, back to YOU, is a charlatan. We have all we ever need inside us. These gurus constantly have us chasing something "out there." For a price. They drain us of time, money, our earnest heart and soul efforts. Which is bad enough.
The very worst thing though. Is when it doesn't work. Because it never could.
And we are actually left worse off, than when we started. Cos we mistakenly believe the problem is us. That we are irredeemably broken.
We are NOT broken. We are intelligently designed. What that "intelligence" is, I can only experience directly for myself. And of course, I can talk about it with others.
But guess what ? I have a dear friend, who is a devout Muslim. She has no idea whatsoever, that I have "woken up." She wouldn't know what the phrase "non-duality"means. And yet. We have the most beautiful conversations about spirituality, and God. She knows I don't "believe in God." I don't have to pretend anything, and neither does she. Our different perspectives have no bearing whatsoever, on the deep, fulfilling heart connection we have.
And that heart connection we share, comes from the same source. And our own connection to that. It belongs to everyone, and no one. It's ubiquitous, abundant, infinite, endless. To box it up, in a "product" or a "religion" or a "modality" is laughable at best, cruel at worst.
It's like trying to sell someone air.....oh, silly me, there are companies that do actually do that. And there are suckers that fall for it. Probably desperately sick people, grasping for anything to escape their suffering.
Suffering is inevitable in this human experience. The very attempt to escape it, is what perpetuates the suffering, and makes us weaker and weaker.
But we are built for resilience. We are strong. We are intelligently designed. When we embrace the reality of suffering, move towards it, only then, can we overcome it.
I'm sick of coddling, soothing, pious clap trap. It's all nonsense.
Thanks Fiona. Well said
Shiv your comment: "Most teachers who start out aren’t really being Machiavellian about it. Many genuinely believe that they want to be of service to others on the path." This seems to me to be the starting place where want-to-be teachers need to ask themselves, "what is my real and total motive for wanting to teach"???? Could the person's ego/insecurity/lack of self confidence, search for acceptance be the larger part of wanting to "help" others become enlightened? Money is always suspect when starting down a path like this, but in my experience ego, the need to be seen as special is subconsciously the biggest motivator, and it takes some real introspection to really be honest and see this. I know from my own self reflection that I would never want to be a "teacher". I know my ego and know that this way madness lies. Being honest with ourselves can be a bitch sometimes. :)
those last two paragraphs- perfect
I think I have to (respectfully !) disagree with this one. I think it's more nuanced. Yes the spiritual industry is a business and yes the business model of that industry is based more on retention than on turnover, but not every "spiritual teacher or speaker" is selling "the end of suffering" or "enlightenment" or a "cursus to awakening", a lot of them are just selling a "music", the "advaita/non dual philosophy music" for instance. And just as some people pay to go to their favorite musician's concert or to purchase his new CD, some people pay for a non-dual retreat or for a one-to-one session with their favourite "spiritual teacher", just to "hear the music", to enjoy a personal link with the "musician", they pay for the experience of being close to him/her whitout wanting something more than the experience itself. And retention makes perfect sense in that perspective and isn't a problem at all.
Some people are fan of a singer or a group their whole life, they spend a lot of money to purchase every new disc, every new song, to go to every new concert, they listen to him/them every day, etc. Are we blaming the singer or rock band for having a business model based on retention ?
Your own products, Shiv, are not very far from what are selling a lot of small "non-dual teachers" : you sell your words (through books and paid subscriptions here on Substack), you sell one-to-one sessions, in other words, you sell "your music", and retention is your business model : you try to make good music so that people continue to read or listen to your words.
You have much more in common with, for instance, Joan Tollifson, Lisa Cairns or Jeff Foster, who are considered "spiritual teachers/speakers", than what you seem to think. And I'm not saying it's a wrong thing or that you should be ashamed of that, not at all. My point is that you are yourself somewhere on the "spiritual industry spectrum", even if you're far from someone like Mooji or Eckart Tolle and closer to Joan Tollifson or Jeff Foster.
I'm not saying you are identical, not at all. You have your own original voice and music. I personally prefer to listen to your voice than to Foster's. But when we compare your respective websites for instance, they are quite similar, on the level of form but also content, you do not use the same words, but a lot of the basic ideas are similar.
Here are for instance two excerpts of the testimonial's section of your respective websites, little quiz : which one is taken from where ? :
“My one-to-one with [...] helped me to really see that everything and anything that I ever thought about ‘enlightenment’ was just a collection of spiritual concepts or beliefs. [...] helped me see that what I really am has no interest in whether I think I have succeeded or failed in my spiritual search. Whether I think I have ‘made it’ or not, the story goes on, and even when life is difficult, it really is OK, always…”
And
“ [...] has this special way of providing you with the answer you need. He guides you in the right path, but lets you explore it. Talking to him is like communicating with pure wisdom. The things he has shared with me have been so powerful, that they were able to change my whole perspective on life. He has helped me find freedom in my life. It might sound over-the-top, but when you are dealing with anxiety, depression and insomnia, there is very little room for freedom and creative expression. But [...]’s guidance (and just his approach to life) has helped me learn from my experiences, release my emotional baggage and find that freedom.
Appreciating all aspects of life and listening to my heart/intuition are daily activities now. Thank you!”
And here is something that come's from JF's Disclaimer on his website : "This website is for general information and entertainment purposes only. Use of this website, or attending a meeting, retreat or one-to-one session with Jeff Foster, or having an email dialogue with him, is NOT a replacement for or substitute to face-to-face, in-person, qualified medical, psychological, psychiatric or legal advice, diagnosis or treatment. Jeff is not a medical doctor nor a licensed psychotherapist. Jeff does not diagnose, cure, heal, or treat disease or psychological conditions or otherwise prescribe any kind of medication whatsoever. [...]" Isn't that something you could say yourself, Shiv, specially that first sentence "entertainment purpose only" ?
So, in a nutshell, yes the "spiritual industry" is based on a retention model but that doesn't make it per se a problem or a red flag. It's only a problem if the "spiritual teacher/writer/speaker" pretends he's offering something more than just "music" (i.e. the end of suffering/enlightenment/etc) AND that the consumer BELIEVES that the "spiritual teacher/writer/speaker" sells him something more than just "music". If you know that Tolle or Mooji can't give you anything fundamental, can't change you in any fundamental way, you can give him all your extra money to enjoy his music or his compagny, it isn't a problem. On the other hand, if you give all your extra money to some "spiritual teacher/speaker/writer" (even if he/she says "I have nothing to offer") because you desesperatly want to be free from all suffering, or become "enlightened", or become "a perfect being", then that's a red flag.
In other words, it's mostly in the hands of the listener/reader/customer. My question to the customers of "spiritual teachers" would be : Do you know why you are spending your money ? Is it just for the "music" or are you expecting more ?
Cedric - understand your desire to see nuance in the situation. However, your own substack is titled “No Masters”. Why? It’s because positioning oneself as a “spiritual master” is a widespread phenomenon. If it was merely a fringe phenomenon like your comment above seems to suggest - you wouldn’t bother taking a contrarian view on it. The reason you have chosen to title your own substack that way is because you clearly see a huge problem with the way people are misled.
Spirituality is more than the little niche world of non-dual teachers. It’s people talking about akashic records and tantra and ascension and aliens and other dimensions and kundalini and astral travel and meditation and bardo states just to name a few. And all of this is energy and movement is geared towards promising people that they can become free of their ordinary lives and emerge into something extraordinary. And those who claim to be able to usher them into it are the ones claiming to be teachers are masters.
And by titling your substack “No Masters” what you are saying is “all of that is bullshit. No one can lead you anywhere. You are already it.”
So, I agree with your opinion that in reality there are only people making music. But that is NOT how most teachers are positioning what they are doing. I do position myself that way but I am a gross minority.
I hear you. Since you mention the title of my own substack, I want to add this : Even the iconoclast, the advaita-killjoy, the anti-guru, is part of the "spiritual spectrum", I myself am part of it, even though I say "No masters" and "If you think you have or are a spiritual master you are deluding yourself". Whether I like it or not I'm making "spiritual music", and those likely to enjoy it or be interested in it, are 'spiritual enthusiasts' or 'spiritual amateurs' or 'spiritual addicts'. Those that never ever had any interest in "spirituality" whatsoever won't be interested in any of what I say. Even by saying "I have nothing to offer", I offer something on the "spiritual realm". The "iconoclasts" or "antigurus" are closer to "gurus" and "masters" that they might think.
I agree. I have never considered myself an antiguru either. Those are some terms people use to describe me. I simply think of myself as a writer
Just for the resonance. That sympathetic vibration.
I used to think like this; that the gurus monetized truth and exploited it for personal gain. But now I see it as a natural part of idea cognizance in a capitalist society. It’s like oil; if you dig where you are standing and it’s valuable to a large group of people, then sell it. Before I used to criticize and condemn, but now I see it as completely natural. I don’t see it as a red flag, from the perspective of if you provide value to the system, you will be rewarded. This is why I also encouraged you to start charging people for your articles. Value is the ultimate currency in a time limited species. What I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what happens when a large group of people organize around a certain idea and create a toxic environment for the other cohabitants in the system, I.e. extremism. We all know which religion is synonymous with “religious extremism”, and yet their numbers are growing in population. This can be seen as a potential threat to the freedoms we all enjoy if the idea is “convert or kill”. The spiritual community is like a cat compared to the tiger of religion.
If an oil company is selling oil that is fine. If an oil company is really paving the way for a hostile takeover of the region by a foreign government and political destabilization - that is not fine.
Selling services is not the issue. It’s the act of selling a promise with the intention to entrap that is. This is a widespread phenomenon as one of the commenters, Being Danced, alludes to above
I think most of them are marketing “the community,” giving a sense of belonging to those who feel like they don’t belong...it’s emotionally a very powerful driver for people.